so the man behind the gummi passed away. we decided to honor him. >> melissa said i love me >> game over. red sox win game three at a 1-0 final here in detroit.

>> good morning, everyone, it's wednesday, october 16th. at least there is some good news for boston. >> for boston. >> with us on set, not washington. national affairs analyst john heilman is with us. hello, george. >> hi. >> add to that, we have donny deutsche, incorporated. donny deutsche. >> and in washington, white house correspondent for the associated press, julie pace and kelly o'donnell. >> so now we raise the bar. >> willie, in either circumstance, we would be talking about the historic effectiveness of the detroit tiger's pitching because their pitching has been extraordinary, verlander, again we seen this three games strikeout after strikeout, that man the best pitcher in baseball without a

doubt, unbelievable. >> of course. >> one strike after another strikeout after another strikeout. yet the tigers couldn't hit and the red sox carrying about a .132 game average. >> i thought the red sox had one run on napoli's home run. that's all they needed. you can see it on verlander's face what do i have to do, exactly? i gave up one bad pitch and i lose. >> how would you like to be a team that basically gave up one hit in 15 innings and you split the series and then you have verlander go out and gave up one pitch and lost. >> i believe now this is the fourth game in six or seven verlander has given up one run an not won the game t. tigers do not score for verlander. >> incredible. and on the west coast.

>> ladies, i want to point out the difference near we put up a five box 2009 men and women. we are a day away from the default and what are the guys talking about? >> i have nothing for you on baseball, sorry. >> here's the thing. there is a game i have been following, it's not baseball. >> exactly. >> the tweet about the baseball games. >> let's tweet about what's going on in washington. >> you know, it's going to end. >> i have known how this is going to end. we said it on the air how it's going to end. >> how is it going to end? >> how we said it will ends for the past several weeks, right? so some people in my party took a stupid pill. they came up with a horrible strategy. >> for like the 15th time. >> shut up. >> we all said they were going to lose, didn't sfwhe scott walker said it. everybody, we all said it. >> willie geist. >> willie geist, of course. was that the latest at-bat?

said guess what, they're going to lose so what are they going to do before the government default? they're going to cave in and they're going to look horrible. sorry. i don't know how these baseball series will end, mika, i know how this will end, they will not default on the president of the united states, like we said. >> the panel is saying a potential downgrade of its credit rating because of the political brinksmanship and reduced financial ability of the united states. last night they rescrambled to end the shutdown and extend the treasury's borrowing limit. earlier in the day, majority leader harry reed and senator mitch mcconnell put it on hold. at the end of the day, speaker boehner was unable to deliver the republican votes necessary to pass the bill after deemed unacceptable by many

conservatives. democrats, in particular, were out raged at the leadership in the house for setting back negotiations nearly 24 hours and putting all of walk under intense pressure to strike a last minute deal. >> we felt blindsided by the news from the house. but this isn't the first time. extremist republicans and the house republicans are attempting to torpedo the bipartisan progress, for a bill that can't pass the senate and won't pass the senate. i'm very disappointed with john boin baner who once adepend tried to preserve his role at the expense of the country. >> the problem that we got is that for speaker boehner, for example, him negotiating with me isn't necessarily good for the extreme faction in his caucus. it weakens him. so there have been extreme situations that we have agreement, he goes back and it

turns out he can't control his caucus t. challenge here is can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> all right. i want to get to kelly o'connell and justly anne the funeral song, first, that, yeah, exactly. that's kay os. how do you know how it end? >> because, do we all remember september 15th, 2008? do we remember that date? do we remember watching the television when the dow jones was losing a thousand points and it kept losing and people started wondering if their entire retirement was going to collapse? how do i know this is going to happen? because i know at some point whether it's thursday or the following tuesday when the markets wake up and realize, there were a lot of people that took the crazy pill in washington. those markets will collapse. when they do, john bohner will panic like any responsible adult would do. he will run to the floor him they're going to end this

crisis. >> they haven't seemed responsible. >> but because, because you know what, negotiation? steve ratner says every big negotiation they have done goes down to the last second. >> this is getting ridiculous. >> follow the money. i don't care what the foundation heritage says, at the end of the day, there is too much money at stake. everybody's net worth of 200930 and 45% going over a cliff in one day, it's not going to happen. >> let's be clear, though, those are two different things. there is a version of reality you just lay down which is we default, the markets crash, then republicans come to their sense. there is not a version of reality we react at the last minute the ratner scenario, tomorrow at the last hour. those would be two different outcomes. a huge market crash tuesday morning would be the worst outcome. >> you never get to the market

crash. you get to actually everybody calling boehner and saying, you foe what, you guy, asia is shaky right now. you guys have like about 12 hours to get your act there. then they put a clean cr on the bill. it gets a majority of the votes. >> kelly o'donnell. >> and the crash is averted. >> they bet that responsible adults in the end will prevail. but let me give you the floor after telling this next story, bus it kind of crystallizes whether or not they are adults. house republicans who find themselves with their backs against the wall broke out in an impromptu hymn of "amazing grace.". >> i love that song, at many fun rals they play that song. wait, it's a funeral song, right? >> congressman byrd of texas noted how members of this marty were able to sing all three verses by memory saying, quote, isn't that impress 95. >> it is.

i like the last verse the best. it's great on star trek when we have been there 10,000 years. >> democrat jerry conley of virginia saw it a little bit differently. after laughing out loud he asked reporters, quote, isn't that usually sung at funerals? i hope they understand there are derivations of those lyricles. it was written by a slave trader. he is remorseful for his past and takes responsibility for those actions and sees the savinglight of grey, even for a wretch like himself. i'm not saying my colleagues are wretches, but i hope what that indicates, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get the point. but generally. >> i love that song. >> what's going on? >> it's good to know we have a sound traing to our crisis. >> well, i think joe is actually on to something. i think we are now hitting the exhaustion phase of what has been a painful chapter. >> let me hit if exhaustion

button. become. go ahead. >> so part of what sort of derailed things late yesterday is certainly the tea party conservatives were telling boehner they couldn't go along. not all for the same reason. there were parts of the bill that dealt with various things that aren't getting a whole lot of attention, weeks to around the edges related to the health care law and so forth. people had different opinions about those things, so they fell short. this really puts boehner in a position now where it is kind of the final hail mary moment. so i was there at the senate late last night where reed and mcconnell continue to work. their staff was working through the nit to get something ready to go. they're playing through all of the different tactical things they need to do. so let's assume they can come forward today with a deal, they pass it in the senate. it does go to binner. i think joe's theory and his insight about this is probably right. you go tote a point now where democrats will go with boehner and he'll lose some of his

conservatives, but there will be enough to get it through. i think that's the best case scenario. could it deinvolve again? yes, but there is a calmness around boehner, he is playing every hand, giving those rebellious conservatives every chaens to get their piece through it has not worked. i think we can say to them, we have tried it all. this is a line we can't cross and i think he can make it happen today. >> that's a sad way to go. >> by the way, for the record, amazing grace i think is the greatest song of all time. >> read by john newton and the words are extraordinarily moving. >> wouldn't you say. >> they are. >> -- at the house republican scene jed kind of a michael moore's script of the west wing. >> symbolic. >> you wouldn't quite believe it. i want my caucus singing hymns, i like that. i just, though, don't want them sinking hymns usually sung at

fun rals. it ends up the congressman steve southerland that led this and work at funerals. >> maybe it's the acceptance phase? >> you know what it could have been, i'm wondering what that one dark blot is they're speaking of. >> okay. so anyway. >> what now? >> play this out. i know you think worry going to -- i don't think it's happening. >> i think kelly's scenario and your scenario are the most shrikely scenarios. yesterday, again i'm not sitting on capitol hill an kelly is a much better capitol hill reporter than i'll ever be. yesterday it didn't seem like controlled chaos. it wasn't completely controlled and the behavior of house republican the 30 or 50 members who have driven to us this point so far has not been holy rational one would agree

throughout this process. >> yesterday they said they will escort. please, stop making me tired. stop making me tired. >> i'm tired. >> are they going to score this, really? >> what i would love for them to go up. they're still talking like it's the beginning of september with their statement saying oh the obama care is going to hurt them. all the things that we conservatives know, yeah, obama care is going to hurt america, tell us something we don't know as conservatives. yet, you are saying allow america to go over the financial cliff? i mean, there are a lot of things i don't like, but, willie, even congress, mike lee, ted cruz, they moved on from this strategy like in a press conference three weeks ago and heritage, they got their heads stuck in the sand. >> some people moved on. there are some members of congress and senate who actually didn't move on, either. it's interesting, john mccain is quoted making the point that

kelly makes about this exhaustion phase. in the "time's kwz he says republicans have to understand we lost this battle. i predicted white sox ago we would not be able to win because we were demanding something that's unachievable. that's john mccain. >> the editorial page was even more stinging, saying we warned you. >> so will and lindsey graham said bohner was a victim of failed strategy, adding republicans have gone too far and screwed up. peter king says the entire situation says this party is going nuts. >> the wall street editorial page i always said talking about the, you know, it's a bible. >> it's conservetism. >> paul should go rhino. >> wall street editorial page rhino. so, hey, julie, what will the house republicans who don't get what they want which is taking a big piece out of the affordable

care act at the end of the day that boehner has to rely on some democratic votes to pass something through. what will they be able to say to their constituents and heritage foundation and others they got out of this deal if it does, in fact, go down the way we played this morning. >> it won't go down a whole lot t. best they will do is vote no against the measure on the floor. for some of them, they might say this is a reason you no ed to keep sending us being. you foed people in the house who can say no to the democratic led senate who can keep saying no to the president. from the white house perspective, there are some people watching this, relishing it. but this bolsters the president's position, with ib is i can't negotiate with john boehner because every time he comes to the table with a deal, whether from his own leadership or the white house, we don't foe if he can get the votes. it always seems to play out this way. he throws out one deal, can't

get the vote. throws out another deal, can't get the vote. i think as kelly and joe are saying, we will probably see the senate put forward a deal mcconnell and reed have been working on a whiechl lit likely pass the senate and go to the house, i think john boehner will go to the floor with it and go at the time democratic votes. it's been so ugly here even by washington standards, that it's hard to predict the final outcome. >> let me do what i do the best, that is saying sayings that are the truth. but it's in both side. so let me start by let's talk about the republican, i'll offend certain republicans right now and say i got a call from a gop official high up in florida last night and said, do you see what happened in special elections? i said i don't really follow house ledges littive special elections in central florida. he said, well, the democrats won a republicancy. there are some local issue, but you know what this gop official who is really conservative,

really republican said, this is just the beginning. we are getting hammered all across the state of florida by our big business owners. these guys in washington are killing us. worry feeling it now, not in '14, not in '16 t. brand is shattered since it all comes down toened practice branding, it is branding in 2008, barak barak they told him it was a bag of potato chims. it was all branding. the republican brand has been i believe so shattered by what's happened you can lock at all the numbers. how did they pull themselves up from 24%? >> there is only one thing that's been shattered more than the republican brand. that's the brand of congress a. study the other day said 40% should be voted out of office.

the american people, almost half of congressmen they would vote out of office. obviously, more republicans. the american people are the ultimate check and balance and what will happen come 2014 the world will shift t. average american person doesn't exactly understand obama care or the sequester is. but they understand that right now the politicians in washington, particularly congress, particularly republicans are not acting in their best interest and they have a way of speaking up. >> you know what else they understand, too, that obama care from these stories they've seen on tv. they don't know a lot about it. the first thing they really know about it is, it doesn't work. like the computer systems. hey, manhattan guys and gals, let's not kid ourselves. that's what they're talking about over dinner tames i tables. it feeds into that washington doesn't work. >> the obum care, the american people have moved on from obama care. even the ones who are against it, 65% said it's okay.

>> i'm not saying, i'm talking about washington's brand, if you don't think like at dockouts this weekend when they talk about what a mess it is in washington, they're not talking about the crazy republicans. they're also talking about like the fact that barak barobama th can't run a website. >> the silver lining to this is you have to bottom out before there is real change. >> how low do we have to go? >> coming into 2014 the american people are going to speak. i think the tea party and poem are not going to be afraid to be a priority any more. like you talked about yesterday, smart guys and women are going to stand up. this is going to be a seat change. >> right, right. i don't know where to start. >> you disagree? >> a couple things, i'll leave the bag of chips aside. i think they did a really good job the president. >> it's all a bag of chips. >> there is nothing wrong with a

back of potato chips. >> it's marketing. >> as far as the obama care website not working. >> i said they marketed it like a can of cola? the way they marketed ronald reagan. jfk. >> the messaging and connecting with the people than wove seen in generations and, quite frankly, that is why we have health care reform, with i is no one else could do and we're arguing about whether or not it works, you know, no one knows actually down the rod certain questions about it. but this president promised it lastly about the website not working, you are an expert in political analysis. the bottom lean is republicans literally left this story that could have been huge and they could have completely capitalized on it. the fact that website has had problems, they've completely self imploded.

i mean, the fact that the website isn't working is not as big a story as it would have been. >> they accepted there is no doubt about it. >> we can't even really get to it. >> the website to this moment as another famous conservative yesterday has been exploring this thing said the website is a disaster. it's a significant problem. it's not a political or liberal issue. >> it's an issue -- >> if it doesn't work, they are. yes. >> by the way, it is a basic function two years -- donny -- >> we may or may not. but it is the case they've had two years to get their i.t. situation together so that when they launched universal health care that people would be able to actually use the website. the fact that they can't speaks to a degree of confidence that is damming on the operating of a basic fundamental government program. if they had not stepped on themselves over the course of the last month, they could have

made hey out of this, this is their 60 achieve him, the one thing you thought they would be able to do is get the website to work. >> you got to do at this time right way instead of taking the country hostage and looking like a bunch of clowns sinking at a funeral. >> like you said, though, whether in central pennsylvania where you were last woke with your family. >> yeah. >> where everybody was talking badliant obama care. >> those same people discussed it with the republicans who have done this. >> hey, mika, if you and donny would have understand this, we would be agreeing with you. it's both parties are loathed right now. they're seen as crazy or incompetent. >> they were loathing with republicans. i think the democrats are seen as ineffective. i think the word "loathing" and the emotion that comes with that, universally assigned --

>> they're all just saying they're all bums. that was my biggest point, willie geist, my biggest point, you in the middle america, are you further up in the west. >> i am. i don't live in the fancy part of town. >> you don't live on the fancy part of town. >> you know i find when you talk to people about what's been going on the last couple weeks, i don't even see the outrage anymore. like they're done. they're done with it. >> obviously, there are people rightly outraged. but the general consensus seems anecdotally, forget it. they don't do anything, they will never do anything. forget it. >> how long can have you these manufactured political crises that will resolve themself that, always resolve themselves at the end and not have people go, but i did last night. i'm not following. it's a baseball game. they know how this ends. i have seen it. they will do it again in three months.

>> let me ask you. we have to go. kelly, what's on tap for today as far as we know? >> well, it will be a tense day. we have to see this play out. the numbness willie was describeing from the public does have an impact. it might also create an opportunity where some of the deal makers in congress can finally put an end game together. there isn't any time for the volleying today anymore. we got today to deal with. i think the leaders do respect this dead loin as a real dead loin set by treasury. i think it will be an eventful day. i will begin this day optimistic and say they get it done. >> can we begin with a song? >> i would start with holy, holy, holy. >> kelly said danny boy. >> you are a great southern baptist, kelly. >> well, what we're looking a in the terms of the white house today. >> two things i think people will be watching, the white

house will be watching, one is the markets. we've seen some shakiness in the markets in the past day or so. but is today the day the markets plummet and say i don't know if washington has its act together t. second thing is from treasury, if we get closer to this dead loin, treasury rolling out prioritization and seeing what bills they will pay first and what bills may have to fall by the wayside. >> i think we have seen a difference between southern baptist and irish catholic. >> i think the song is being unatrades. >> i'm from the holy, holy, holy. >> that one since vacation bible school. we get the irish catholic, talk about a drink song. let's sing "danny boy." oh, danny boy. >> let's mote tomorrow and see what the appropriate song is. kelly o'donnell, julie pace, thank you very much for putting up with us this morning. coming up on "morning joe," we will talk to senator susan

collins about her effort to reach a debt deal, michael axelrod and bret murphy will be joining us and oscar winner robert red ford will be here to talk about his latest role, which has very little dialogue but plenty of oscar buzz. next, mike allen joins us about the political playbook. >> this is big. >> he's fantastic and bill kierans who is with us now. >> thank you. >> i'm going to the restroom a couple blocks, take a camera there. >> ew. >> all right. appreciate it. >> it's like 6:25 in the morning, you think about that? >> tj. what is he doing? >> i love how it's tj's fault. >> my bad. >> show gary. >> willie, stop that.

>> he's making me eat what's in the bowl. >> good morning, everyone, we are watching rhine rain in the forecast, overall, not a bad morning out there for the middle of october. can you believe it's the middle of october already? it's snowing in colorado this morning. as far as the airports go today, i don't see a lot of big issues, if you are doing the airport, san antonio, memphis, cleveland, the rain is really the steadiest from texas to little rock. this morning getting light rain out of that. i have been to kentucky, up through ohio, cleveland, syracuse, buffalo, have that umbrella with you. enjoy the warmth of the eastern seaboard. this has been a warm october. all indications are next week at this time some of the coldest air of the season will come down from canada from the great lakes first to the ohio valley then the east coast. we have been enjoying a warm october to this point. so enjoy it. new york city, one or two more

warm days for you. you are watching "morning joe" on this wednesday. the american dream is of a better future,

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. >> all right. 30 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. l.a. times, a suspect is under arrest after two consecutive days of dry ice bomb explosions at los angeles international airport. police say an employee of an airport contractor took dry ice from a plane and put it in plastic bottles around the airport. no one was hurt in two explosions. >> why? >> he was charged with explosive of a device near an aircraft. his bail is set at one million -- >> you and i are accuse of, it was the '70s. >> the red brigade.

>> san diego reunion review. >> willie is taking this. >>ly do this one. san diego union trib bound disgraced former mayor bob filfer. he was forced out of his office, he was charged with felony, false imprisonment, battery. he will be banned from seeking public office and confined to his home for three months and will be forced to seek therapy. orlando sent fell, two florida girls ages 12 and 19 e 14 are facing felony stalking charges, accused of bullying their classmate, a 12-year-old to the point where she eventually committed suicide. officials say the bullying was done in person and online. the turning point in the case came saturday when one of the girls was accused of writing on facebook this, yes, i know i

bullied rebecca and she killed herself but idgaf. >> i don't give a thing. >> come on. this is real. this is a real -- >> it ha himself so much. bullying online happens so much. >> imagine being the mother or the father. >> they're looking at charges not just against the girls but the parents for not controlling it. i think it's going to be one of the bigger issues, especially with devices of technology and how you monitor that and control it. i mean, it's such a challenge for parents. >> do you know your kids' passwords? >> do you read it? it was a real issue in our house, i would read. the kids get really, really upset. but the bottom line is you own those devices. you own those devices, are you parents. are you responsible for them. >> you have to let them know, you have to let them know, you are not only going read that. i mean, you are going to monitor

them in anyway. >> there is really no other option. >> and that also gives you the power if your son or daughter is being bullied online, to call the parent and say, hey, listen, i'm going to tell you what i saw online and keep your daughter, keep your son out of my child's way or you are going to, we're going to talk about this at school. >> it's easier said than done. i know. it's a terrible story. the new york post last week in new york city, there were no murders, zero murders in any of the five boroughs. it's the first time this has happened since last january. so far in 2013, there have been 256 murders, that's down 26% from the same period last year. all right. the san francisco chron cam the bid of an 18-foot long serpent sea creture was discovered off the coast of catalina island in

southern california. look at that. >> it gets crazier. it's the sasquatch of the sea. >> scientists discovered this 300 pound fish. >> do you know how big those can get? >> yeah. >> that was 15 fee. up to 50 feet. >> don't tell us you caught one. >> they swim at depth of more than 3 -- >> i didn't catch one. ways in scotland and i rode one, i lassoed one. >> as one does. >> and rode one. >> nobody laugh at this next story, not this. >> lock at that fish. that's 15 feet. they go up to 50 feet. >> catalina island is where i went to boy scout camp, we were excited to see abalone. >> this is important. >> new research shows oreo

cookies. >> i love them. >> double stuffed ones. >> now listen to this. >> orea cookies may be just as addictive as cocaine. >> so you have done boerkts john heilman, they're not as addictive, are they? >> no. >> but the stuff inside is very good. >> yes. >> i ate a lot. >> can you free base that. >> can you? >> is that what happened to ricky nelson in the airplane? >> absolutely incredible a. rush like you wouldn't believe. >> a study of lab rats by students at connecticut college, the oreos triggered more neurons in the brain's pleasure center than cocaine. this kind of study has been done before with other types of food, salt, sugar or fat in the food causes the same reaction, the sort of pleasure center of the brain lights up like cocaine lights it up. guys. serious.

>> one of them helps you gain weight. one helps you lose weight. >> which is why you do both, it's perfect zblk if you pick up too much weight, i read the book. >> do both. >> put that in the book. >> that's only if you hit your target weight. >> that's news now when you and i go to vegas, we save ourselves a lot of time and effort, just get a box of oreos. >> off the plane, straight to the cafeteria, double stuffs, pack 'em up. >> go up to the suite, lock your door. >> but, okay. >> you know what, it's doisy. >> all right. we have the great mike allen here. >> i don't know what you are talking about. >> it's an honor and a privilege. >> mike allen.

look at the playbook. there was a big mayoral debate last night here in new york city. the federal government shut down, becoming a heated local issue. in the debate last night democrat bill deblasio up 50 points tried to link joe lhota to the national republicans and the tea party. >> it's interesting he went to the tea party on staten island and appealed to them to support them, told the tea party members in staten island there's their values are close to his. i know we need a change, we don't need tea party extremism. the idea that the tea party is holding up obama care and the debt situation, mr. lhota has to be honest with us. it's not honest to say you didn't, where i don't agree with the national republican party is long and hard. >> i ham pro choice that,ry not. i am pro gay rights as well as marriage equality. they are number i have been outspoken about these issues over and over again. i went and i talked to the tea party.

when i went, there was things i agreed with them on and things i disagreed with them. it's unbecoming bill. >> last night there was a new jersey gubernatorial debate, you heard these themes as well, republicans sort of distancing themselves from walk republicans. >> good luck. this is your conversation earlier about the branding. like this is a free club for any democrat to hit any republican whether they agree with the tea party or had anything to do with the shutdown last night. bill deblasio sealed the deal. he pointed out way ahead. there is only one other dewitt and he was very effective here and joe lhota did nothing to change the debate. he can complain all he wants saying he doesn't have anything to do with it. we are seeing the same thing in 52. . the republican the attorney general cuccinelli, he took ads saying the government should stay openedment all the ads are

associateing him. >> can the timing for cuccinelli come any worse tan right now? he already had problems with bob mcdonald, about a book he wrote talking about medicare, social security. you know as you win the primary and try to move back to the middle in virginia, which virginia demands of its governors, suddenly washington blowing up. i mean, it's horrible timing for ken cuccinelli. >> right. having an r after your name at the same time that virginia which we had thought is a purpose him state is looking very much like a blue state right now. >> wow. on the other hand for some governors this is a great time. if you over the last several months and years made a point to say i'm not a washington republican, keep running in that direction right now. >> yeah, chris christie in the '70s, approval rating, it's crazy. catalina island. i never been to catalina island. i hear it's great. you went there as a boy scout. >> you went there on a seaplane. >> okay.

>> and oreos also in this segment. >> mika told you not to laugh. you disobey. >> we were talking about something else, mike allen, talking about the playbook. >> talk about vegas. >> still ahead, we will ask congressman sean duffy how they are willing to go in their standoff with president obama. matt holliday gave the cardinals an early lead. could they come back and save themselves? i can't wait to see next. before they sat down, one more time, just for themselves. before the last grandchild. before the first grandchild. smile. before katie, debbie, kevin and brad... there was a connection that started it all and made the future the wonderful thing it turned out to be... at bank of america, we know we're not the center of your life,

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>> all right, let's talk some playoff baseball. game four of the nlcs, dodgers looking to even their series, two gaems apiece playing at home. cards up is-0, matt holliday stepped to the plate. >> here's holiday. >> that ball is driven to left and it is long gone. >> wow. a bomb. >> holiday gets his first hit in the series and it is a big one. he says that's about as far as i can hit a ball. >> the two run home run gives them the load. they cut it to one, pitch hitter shane robinson, shane robinson, a little insurance for the

cards. a short shot over, sneaks over the left field wall. cards take a 4-2 load. and that is your final score. cardinals up 3-1. >> zach grinke plays against kershaw in the next game. >> you got to see, oh, there's tom cruz. it's so annoying. >> everybody gets there late. show up. >>io exhibit to lock at tom. >> what do you have against tom cruise? >> it's great. you are a movie star. i want to focus. i'm a purist. he's a great actor. >> he came back down. he looks so young. >> he takes care of himself. "top gun." >> "risky business." oh, come on. >> "cocktail." >> what are you brick up

"cocktail" for? >> why don't you talk about the nascar film with robert duval. it was a great movie. >> come on, he has a great imb page. >> let's go to the red sox. game three, sox and tigers, john lackey. >> oh, man. >> a pitcher's dual. >> scoreless in the 7th. verlander pitching to mike napoli. >> high drive ball to left center. back at the wall. the red sox have taken lead. napoli -- >> mike napoli. >> that is the only run of the game. sox up 1-0. >> napoli's first major league at-bat, home run to justin verlander. >> to that same spot. >> red sox take the lead 2-1 in the series. game four is tonight in detroit. 4:00 eastern this afternoon.

by the way, that series is going to be, i don't know how it's going to end, that one owe glow have the numbers been strong? these are top teams. have you read? >> i haven't seen. i do hear the "top gun" theme in my ear right now. >> danger zone, baby. >> old time rock nr roll might have been a little over the top. >> getting kelly mcginnis polls right now. >> up next. >> a little known fact his commanding officer, carl bernstein. >> i can't believe what i have to do. i have two knuckleheads. >> must read opinion pages. [ male announcer ] legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses.

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gun"? . >> he shows up for his first day and goes, can i take a shower first? >> you have never done that, willie and i were saying. >> your pro volleyball game, you have been playing in your jeans all day. i need a shower. >> they ask you to take a shower. >> best selling author and award winning journalist. >> thank god you are here. it's kind of a whacky day. i think people were getting a little punchy. either that or we will be weeping at the state of o'fairs in washington. >> the load editorial waxed the republicans, saying, basically, we told the guys this was coming. now the best thing you can do is surrender. >> any other way to see this? >> look, the republican party today has become a rampant organization from the top down the leadership is cancerous, this is a water shed moment in american history and unless

people, mccain and others throw out the leadership that appeased the tale that is wagging the republican dog, the tea party is not just a movement. it has been cowardly embraced by eric cantor by boehner who has gone along with this craziness and allowed himself to be the speaker of this party and what it stand for. you have to go back to the party the democrat ec party of segregation to find this kind of scorched earth politics putting the national interests nowhere and putting ideology and ideology above all else. this is a terrible moment in our history. the full faith and credit of the united states, our reputation abroad, our stability, oour national security has been in danger by mcconnell, by cantor, who have embraced and cowardly appeased these forces who are know nothings. >> so now let's get the

republican response. >> go ahead. what is the republican? >> the republican process is this. >> no, what is it? >> there are plenty of people like jeb bush, like john mccain, throw these people out. >> here's the republican response. >> go ahead. >> there are two parties in america. i mean, in the republican, actually three parties the democratic party, there's the republican party in washington and then there's the republican party outside of washington. the republican party outside of washington as governors with really high approval ratings. they control 60% of the governor's mansions, they control majority of the senate seats across american legislatures. they control the majority of the house the lower chambers and they have done very well. my fear is that the area where we are really strong, we, my republican party, is now being affected by the party in washington, d.c. that is

unfortunately, you got a 24% approval rating. >> this is your leadership, though, this is not the rank and file. >> my leadership. the people that i look for, for leadership of the republican party are chris christie, scott walker. >> let them get up and say throw eric cantor out. >> we will pick this up at the top of the hour. carl, when we come back, we will pick it up. you will tell us how you really feel. we will be back with much more "morning joe." [ music playing ] (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the

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♪ amazing grace ♪ how sweet the sound ♪ that saved a wretch like me ♪ i once was lost ♪ but now i'm found ♪ >> bernstein is still with zblus judy collins. >> judy is great. >> it micks you think. >> first we think of -- >> who died? >> the word wretch. >> actually, what a great voice judy colins had. that's on my iphone. >> that's a song for dead people. >> you don't know. it's a song for those of us who died and were born into a new life. >> it's about forgiveness, man.

but, you know what, rapid time. >> yeah. >> shooting out in space. that was one of the great bagpipes come in. >> what are they thinking? >> god! >> joining us from capitol hill, we have the ranking member of the house for sight and government reform, elijah couple mince, democrat from maryland. >> good morning, elijah. >> so, obviously the back story oto that, mika the amazing grace back story. >> it's awful. >> what do you mean it's awful? >> well, it's kind of symbolic at this point because it feels like there is no end in sight except for a last minute scurry to the finish line. they broke out in an impromptu hymn of amazing grace during a morning meeting. congressman from texas noted members were able sing all three verses by memory saying, quote,

isn't that impress sniff. >> that is impressive. >> are you kidding, they really did that? >> what's wrong with that? >> i thought it was a joke. >> you didn't get the whole joke. >> i thought it was just an overview. >> it's a matter of being religious out there. >> you got to watch the 6:00 a.m. hour. >> conley of virginia saw it differently, after laughing out loud, he asked reporters, quote, isn't that actually sung at funerals? it turns out the congressman that led the republicans in sinking "amazing grace," worked in a funeral home. >> let's move onto the news. willie, i mean, do they do that in congress? a lot of times they move over on the big financial, goldman sachs, they do that? when they're not going into a tough negotiation with the chinese? don't they break out? >> sinking to a different guy, i

believe. >> oh. the golden calf. >> on wall street. >> i think as symbolism goes, having a mortician lead you in song as we come up to the precipice is not the best. >> i don't know. i think maybe one of his family members. still, nonetheless. >> joe in all serious inside, this is terrible. it's terrible. >> there is a degree of cluelessness here as far as people, i said this a couple of weeks ago, when you had the -- again, you look at the "wall street journal" editorial page here, you know, this is what conservatives read in the morning, economic conservatives that read this and, you know, the journal of the day said the beltway, a bunch of mellow drama rolls on, it's predictable and dreary and bake amy say republicans now, they didn't listen to us. the "wall street journal" is saying that. i'm saying that, chris christie is saying that, scott walker is saying. one and all.

>> but the thing is, it ends up the rhinos are the people who are calling everybody else the rhinos, because these are, you know, i you got the "wall street journal," scott walker, bedrock conservatives warning them, don't put your hand on this stuff. if you touch the stove, you get burned. it's been burned. here's the thing, some of them want to press down harder. and it's the entire party. >> that's the point. >> that right now is getting hurt and i think. >> it's much more than. i think there is a degree of just cluelessness. it's not recklessness. it's clowlessness. >> they think. >> hold on, carl. >> they think that they are the first conservatives to ever get elected and go to washington, d.c. and i must admit, i thought that for about a year. and then i got a left hook by

political reality as did tom komer, steve largent, matt salmon, and some of the most conservative guys i ever met in my life. you physical out, you don't want to run out. you know what happens, they shoot you. in the end, you got to figure out a smarter what i to win. >> carl, then elijah. >> cluelessness and tactics. this is an ethical question. >> no, carl, i sat here and listen to you with your moral lecturing last time. no, this is a battle over tacking thes. >> no. >> listen, nobody thinks that obama care is worse for america's long-term health and safety than do i. nobody in congress. i seriously believe that in the end this loads us to a single payer nationalized health care system which you like and progressives like. i think it's disastrous. >> i disagree of the tactics of how we get there. i think we have to be smarter.

it's not a moral issue. it's just an issue, let's not have a debate over whether the conservative party or the moderate party. let stop being the stupid party. >> the moral issue is not obama care t. moshl issue is allowing the united states, our very fabric of our being, our governmental system, our finances to be absolutely obliterated. >> let's see if that happens. >> why? we have been affected terribly by this event. this is a water shed. >> hold on a second. i didn't do the stockmarket. >> this isn't the stockmarket. >> willie and guy to the smashing. if i'm not mistaken the dollar is still, be i the way, 15,000 carl and you're acting like locusts have descended from the heavens the markets will crash, more americans will be hurt than have already been hurt if this

goes on for a week or two or three. but we're not there yet. >> this is, lock, this is a continuum that has been going on for years with this president. let's go back to george bush's election. >> let's not. because we really don't have time. >> well, let's see how the democrats took george bush's election and the supreme court election and recognized his legitimacy as president. let's look what happened with the nine leaders of the marty e party on inauguration day said we are going to cut this guy's legs off. how did this happen? >> hey, charm, democrats called him a nazi for eight years. >> idiot democrats. >> and guess what, they're idiot democrats, idiot republicans. if i had a dollar for every time i heard a democrat say that george bush shredded the constitution for doing the same exact thing that barak obama continues to, do well, i would have as much money as willie gooichlts let's go to elijah

cumming. willie, elijah is here. say good morning. >> you are the moderator. >> actually, carl, i am the moderator. >> congressman sounds like he wants in. go ahead, congressman. >> let's go back to the song "amazing grace." it says i once was lost, i was blind, now i can see the song i have been seeing all my life. i can tell you that we have, sadly, it pains me to say this, sadly a republican party at war with itself and it basically has suspended government, it's suspended our democracy. it's suspended almost any kind of oefrd. they don't know what they want. the sad part about all of this is the american people suffer and you know i hear people say, well, you know, it's not going to be as bad as you think. well, you wait tore those social security checks and disability checks, those 58 million checks stop going into the bank and the people who have. >> elijah, do you think we could

get there? >> i don't know. hopefully today we will get something from the senate that we can live with, then the question becomes, joe, what happens when it hits the house? will baron stand up? i think boehner's got to say, lock, i'm going to do what's best for the countryen. not for the tea party. not for the republicans, what is best for the country. this is my watch. i will join with democrats to push through a piece of legislation that keeps the government opened and pays our debts. that's basically what peep want us to do. when i go home to my drirkts people are saying, cumming, you mean you can't keep the government opened and pay the debts that you owe? come on, we're better than that. >> congressman, you have known speaker boehner in a long time? do you know in your heart of hearts what you know about him, in that 11th hour, that hour is approaching, he will allow the united states of america to reach the debt limit and perhaps

go in default? >> i think i know him fairly well. i think the john boehner i know would not allow that to happen. i got to tell you, when have you the heritage foundation the heritage action to say they are going to scuttle the legislation he tried to put on the floor last night. within 20 minutes, 20 minutes after the heritage foundation says worry not going along with this. they paul bill, i don't know who i'm billing with. i think it's very sad. >> elijah, very god to see you. i hope things work out very well. so they call you couplings back in your district? they don't call you congressman couplings? >> they call me cumming, e, eli. >> i can't tell you what they used to call me in my district when dealing with congress, man. >> joe, i don't think you would have allowed this to happen. >> of course not. i voted against raising the debt ceiling. there were 400 people on the other side of it t. thing is when people are hurt hurting,

the way they're hurting, you have a weak economy. then you start talking about messing around with the united states of america's reputation across the globe and our standing in the world, i believe we are a special country. i really do. up know you do, too. >> oh, definitely. >> i believe we're the greatest country on the planet. i just do. it makes a lot of people angry. i believe in american exceptionalism. this hurts us across the global. more importantly, it could hurt working class americans. they'll foley the rip him effect of this before any of us around this table do. that's the real concern. >> one preacher in my district said to me, elijah, it seems like the congress is becoming the enemy of our own destiny, our nation's destiny. >> that at sad commentary. >> thank you, elijah. mika, we have been saying that for some time that america has so much going for it, you hear people talk badly about the country. but you lock at the energy

revolution, you lock at the technology revolution, you look at all the things that start here, it seems the greatest obstacle in our way is washington, d.c.. >> that's all true about the things going on. be you this is a very embarrassing time. it really is. you know, i don't think you can downplay the effects of this. joining us live from capitol hill, republican senator susan collins. senator collins, it's god to have you on board, what's the hope the best hope we have today in the countdown? >> i think the best hope is a group vote, 14 senators who have been working hard over the past two weeks to forge a compromise. there are seven republicans, seven democrats and we have essentially reached an agreement on a plan that would reopen government, avert the default, provide the income verification for the obama care exchanges, to

lay the medical device tax for a couple of years, but pay for it and perhaps most important direct the budget countries to come up with a long-term fiscal plan to deal with our unsustainable $17 trillion debt. i think that's a good, fair, balanced plan. >> what about the house? will it pass the house? >> i don't know and, of course, we've given this plan to our leaders and i know that they're negotiating. so it's possible they're going to come up with some version of the plan, but if i were the leaders, i would take a hard look at what 14 senators had been able come up with a possible template for us to go forward and solve this impasse once and for all. >> all right, john heilman. >> senator collins, how frustrating has it been for you? it's great have you come to a compromise, i think it's fair to

say the senate could come up with a compromise, the question has always been the house, how frustrating is it for you to recognized for all the senate's good work, the fate of your compromise lies in the hands of john boehner and the right flank of the house republican caucus? >> i don't envy john boehner, i think he has an extraordinarily difficult task. i have never served in the house. i wouldn't presume to tell him how he should proceed. i will tell you this, on october 5th, on that saturday when i was in my office trying to put together the outline of a plan, i became so frustrated listening to the dewitt on the senate floor because it was extremely partisan and neither side was offering a way out. and what the 14 of us have tried to do is to offer an end to this impasse, to offer a path forward for both the house and the

senate where each side can point to specific provisions that they like. >> senator susan collins, thank you so much for being on this show this morning. good luck. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you. >> all right, so, carl, we need to explain to everybody, we're really good friends, we like each other a lot. >> you said the most eloquent thing about what this means. you said it. no, you said it. cummings said it. you said it exactly right. this is about people hurting and that's what these people in washington and these republicans led by eric cantor appeased by boehner and by mcconnell until recently have allowed to happen. you could not have been morel consequent. >> well, thank you, carl. carl sends a message, you know. >> it's amazing grace. >> the crap around here. i love carl, i love having you on. it's always fascinating. there is a lot of people watching today. >> it's like a kum baya moment. >> people are watching thinking

this was a great segment. i am bitterly sorry about one thing, can you say mccarthy. >> a scorched earth. >> gone mccarthy scorched earth. >> scorched earth democratic party is now the example of segregation. >> all right. carl, it's always great to have you here. >> thank you so much. coming up, more us. . >> how the bhes in washington impacts the upcoming mid-terms and beyond political strategist david axelrod and mike murphy break down the balance of power. >> murphy is mad and he's pissed off. [ music playing ] [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah.

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>> the problem we got is speaker boehner, for example, him negotiating with me isn't

necessarily good for the extreme faction and his caucus. it weakens him. so there have been repeated situations where we have agreements. he goes back and it turns out he can't control his caucus. so the challenge here is, can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> beautiful scene in washington. i suppose tj could have taken that shot when he had done amazing grace. you know, come on, he mixes up images a lot. >> he gets part right. can't get the whole thing together. >> i was having my big lumberjack breakfast. he got that. with us now, we got at the table the editor and chief of news and publisher of the new york daily news maury zuckerman, the former director of the university of chicago institute of politic, msnbc contributor, now the pr

consultant johnny football, david axelrod, i am guessing that is why he is at the station. >> we have the boston political calmness "time" magazine mike murphy. both david and mike wrote pieces about the survey of the new american center on msnbc news.com. >> mike murphy, i take it you agree with the "wall street journal" editorial page, myself and other republicans who have been warning this faction for some time that this strategy leads to disaster. where does the republican party sit today? >> well, you know, when things are so bad that you open the meeting by calling in the member who was an undertaker to sing "amazing grace." >> oh, lord. >> i don't want to sound like jeff foxworthy in an old act, be you you have problems, that said, with le have a restart after this train wreck, hopefully, we will not go off the fiscal cliff, the stupidest

possible thing to do. we will have a discussion. i want to buy a free vacation to little big horn for senator cruz, give him time to regather and think and march forward and move back into the winning business, which i think we can do. >> david axelrod, where do we stand right now in washington? it seems like the president and the congress may be moving towards a deal. do you think it happens? >> you know, i think it does at the end of the day and one of the things that i'm concerned about is if it does happen, then we don't have another round of recriminations. >> that makes it harder to get something done in the interim. i mean, this is going to be an interim agreement. i hope that people don't go and start licking their wounds and saying, well, we're going to get our pound of flesh in the next round, then worry right back where we were. i trust that won't happen. one thing, joe, i want to say is, this survey mike and i wrote about. one thing it suggests is there is this broad middle and the

value that runs through this middle is responsibility. they want responsibility and i think they're looking at what's going on in washington and they're profoundly angry about it. because this is not an exhibition of responsibility. >> rightfully so. >> there is a political imperative for goex folks to get something done. >> when you look at the numbers that came up from the washington post, abc news poll this week, you look at the nbc news "wall street journal" poll, approval ratings are collapsing. mainly the republican party. this isn't a bargain for the president. either it's tough out there. what message are we sending to the world? what are they saying about us? >> it remind me of a guy that jumps off the 40th floor bigd and as he goes by the 12th floor, he says, don't worry, nothing is happening yet. this is a potential catastrophe. forget about the world. this is all a symptom of huge

deficits and huge debts in the country. we have not found the political leadership in the executive branch or the congress to deal with it. it's absolutely devastating for the united states, not only politically but economically. >> can i just ask, one of the smartest business guys, will you explain the 60 second, if which some chance, i ae grow with joe, we did go over the cliff, specifically, what happens tomorrow to people's iras? what happens to this economy? >> nothing tomorrow. >> anybody that has a financial instrument, whether it's debt, stocks or assets will see a major erosion of value. i'm not going to say it's permanent, it will be a shock to the system. >> 20%? 30%? >> nobody knows. it's unprecedented and unpredictable. what we will have, this is a permanent thing a loss of confidence in the american system and leadership.

not just politically but economically and financially. the world financial system does not function without the american leadership. >> mike murphy, you have been breaking things down, following you on twitter, blow by blow, go back and.com knows as the republican and greater political an liftd you are, how we got to this point, in other words, how did someone like senator ted cruz or the minority of the republican caucus the tea party wing of the caucus seize control of this moment and take the party by the throat, why wasn't john boehner or mitch mcconamy or some other senior leader able to step in and say, hey, guys, that's not how we do things here, step off. >> we have a faction that wanted this fight. they wanted this tactic. our problem sometimes in the republican party is we conservatives have this disease where we look at every election like a republican primary. we only have general election voerts. we were on the cusp. the president was in real political trouble t. obama rollout was looming. we found out it was bad. we were a 84 away from the

election to litigate obama care and take it to the bat lol box. people got impatient, particularly in the house. hey, we got out the bravehart dvds, get excited, a lot of us, i know joe is one of them. i sure was said tactically. this will play right into the democratic hands, it did. now we have to extricate ourselves for this i am bullish about the 2014 elections. we have huge brand problems which could make us competitive in 2016, which is the big election we have to win from my point of view for the sake of the country. >> joe, who is this on? we talk about failure on the democratic side. we say it's on the president, he's the president. but this is happening on the republican side. we all agree on that, who is this on? >> let's see how the story end. the famous quote by the british prime minister, a week is a lifetime in politics, let's see how this end. if the republicans were smart, this faction of the republican party would have stopped this

several weeks ago an gotten out of the way and allowed all of the problems with the health care plan to be the lead headlines. >> without question, in fact, the republicans had a lot of good things going for them, they have sort of lost their credibility in terms of running the government based on the kind of behavior. you do not take there. is an old lines, right? never take the slightest chance at a catastrophic outcome. this is what they're now looking at. they took that, it was a ridiculous gamble. >> so david axelrod what are the options on the part of the white house at this point? >> well, lock, i think we're down to the short straws here. i think what's going to have to happen is that the senate is going to send their bill and the house is going to have to pass it and, you know, the question is what happens internally in the republican caucus? after that i'll tell you, though, i was listening to mort talk about tim pact of this. the most frightening moment

yesterday was congressman yoho from joe's state, when he said in an intervow that he thought that all this talk about catastrophe, if we go over the cliff was media hype. and if that kind of thinking prevails, then worry going to have really big problems. in terms of 2016 as mike mentioned, though, the real question for the republican party is i think structurally they're set up okay for 2014. we'll see how this impacts it. in 2016 the question is whether the yohos of the world control the nominating process. if they, do you won't win a national election. >> mike murphy, what i heard from the biggest fund raisers in republican politics over the last three or four days, they say, you know what, i have given money, i think and i'll just tell you what they're saying to me privately. i think barak obama is terrible for this economy. i think he supports reg lakes

too much. i think he, his default is raising taxes too much. i can't believe what i'm about to say. but i can't give my money to a party that's willing to play russian roulette with our economy. and i'm talking the biggest contributors in the republican party are now saying i can't continue to support this party if they're going to take this risk with my business and my economy. >> right. i'm hearing the same thing. i lock at 2016. i see a party, a republican party that's going to be in drives for reasons like. that we have a path forward. if you look at this data, this is a bunch of voters, we can win if 2016. if we go to a larger percent annual. simultaneously, i believe the democrats are headed for the dogma on the right of the republican party is getting all the press, we seem to have a knack for it. if you look at the democratic

party, it is aproeveng lefter and lefter. bill deblasio would say, too much. he's a good guy in 2016, i think you will see the wings of both parties driving politics that will increasingly alienate these new voters in the american survey. who are the key to winning the presidency. >> i like talking with that middle. but. >> i just want to say one thing. when two guys are fighting on the edge of a cliff, you don't ask who is right? you say what are we doing on the edge of a cliff? we are looking to follow the edge of this cliff t. republican party at this point deserves to get its butt whipped for doing. okay. on that note, mort, stay with us. david axelrod, mike murphy thank you very much t. voters make up the nation's political mild at nbcnews.com/american center. we've featured some of them right here on the show. in just a few minute, we will

exclusively reveal this year's panelists for the national awards. we'll be right back. at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. [ male announcer ] staying warm and dry has never been our priority. our priority is, was and always will be serving you, the american people. so we improved priority mail flat rate to give you a more reliable way to ship. now with tracking up to eleven scans,

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>> up next, are house conservatives willing to swallow what comes out of the senate to

keep from default? >> i am not. >> donny, you let everything. >> sean duffy is coming up next on "morning joe." this is unlike anything you have ever seen. .

. >> with us now on capitol hill, we got congressman sean duffy, sean the "wall street journal" editorial page is saying quote, it's time to wrap up this comedy of political errors, talking about the best thing the republican party can do for the future of the republican party is admit they've screwed up and move onto the next fight. >> yeah. >> what do you think? >> i think we couldn't put a deal together last night, so harry reed and mitch mcconnell will work on a deal today. lit come to the house. >> what will happen? >> it will pass. >> why do you say that? >> i think like you said this morning, will you see a lot of democrats vote for it. you might get a few republicans

to vote for it. i don't think you will see a wide swath more conservative caucus on what comes over from the senate. >> i would take it you consider yourself a conservative guy most your life, you are probably called nasty names by people. let me tell you, they are actually the real rhinos. what is it like being born a conservative, growing up a conservative, running office as a conservative, being elected as a contevtive and getting into office and finding out you have to embrace dumb tactics to be considered a conservative to certain groups in washington. >> like you mentioned, paul walker, good conservatives, i think some are trying to move the needle not to conservative but to libertarianism. that's a debate we have. i am proud of the caucus in this sense, we first proposed the president a defunding of obama care, we moved and said let's do a one year delay of obama care

t. most recent offer before the government shut down waslet put the president in, obama care along with administration and treat the families like a business. it was a proposal we sent over to the president, he said no to, that caused the shutdown. it's been a pretty reasonable caucus as we engage in debate. >> i love this democracy. i love this country when obama care was passed by congress, passed by senate. >> upheld by the supreme court. >> in a popular election in 2012 when we elect obama. explain to me why that is a good tack tech or what was positive about that, what makes sense for the american people? >> let him answer. >> do you think it's unreasonable that obama be in obama care? >> is that a question? >> do you think it's unfair that

obama be in obama care and the administration being in obama care. members of congress will be in, so do a lot of americans, isn't it unfair that the president be so great he join us in obama care, isn't that fair? >> that was the issue for the caucus and the republican party. >> listen, this is a proposal that we made before the government shutdown. we said obama has to be in obama care and treat people like big businesses in regard to taxes. last night the deal john bohner was working out was a clean cr, a funding bill and a debt limit increase for the extremes of president join us in obama care. the reason that's important is, if the administration families are sitting at the computer, jay carney's wife, michelle obama is sitting at the computer trying to sign up and they can't get in, they're going to be that much more compelled to fix the program. instead of saying i've got --

>> mika are laughing right now because yesterday. >> yeah. >> we were talking to somebody that ran one of the largest banks in america and they tried to get on to change benefits for their spouse and they conget anything done. so they mixed up the phone and they called the person who was in charge of benefits and called them into their office and said, are you trying to get on? have you tried to get on and change benefits for your spouse or anything? they said nosh, made them get on. they couldn't get it done. i'm telling you, does that not sound -- so the only reason i say that is, it's really, i think it is a rational reasonable argument mort zuckerman to say if you are going to except the administration from the affordable caring a, if you are going to exempt congress from the affordable care act, if you are going to exempt your

favorite businesses from the affordable care act, we ask you exempt working class americans, middle class americans, small business owners from the affordable care act. is that not a rational argument? >> i think it is a rational argument. unfortunately, the republicans lost this argument before. it's all been gone lou the legislative process, the courts. they can bring this up over and over again. it's just going to destroy them politically. at some point you got to make a judgment here. >> they've lost that debate and this -- >> if the congressman wants to make that argument, you could pass the law. the problem is the reason the republicans are made the issue here is not the question. the issue here is not the question of whether or not that's a good idea, the question is whether house republicans can hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling over that issue. >> if the congress wants to pass that law pass the house of representatives, you pass the

law. >> joe, are you telling me we're holding america hostage by asking obama to be in obama care? >> if that's the condition for the debt ceiling, yes, you r. it's exactly what are you doing. >> it's not unconditional. we had agreements in walk. no doubt. >> hold on, let the congressman answer the question. >> thank you, joe. >> go ahead, congressman. >> listen, the president is unwilling to engage in a debate. if you ask about fairness and equality under the law, they would say it's fair? that members of congress should be in obama care. the president, michelle the kids, my family, all the government families who voted for this legislation, they should be in it. they shouldn't have their gold plated plan. i don't think it's reasonable to make the argument the president

will shut the government down because he doesn't want to be in obama care. mika, my mom is a good liberal. she loves you, she's happy i'm on the show. i think are you a part of the problem. you are a part of the problem, because the republican caucus sometimes can be unreasonable. look how far we want to move. we said we want to defund it. now we want to delay it. now ewe want to ask for weeks to and reforms. if you called out your liberal guests, why wouldn't you call for obama care? if it's good for americans, why isn't it good for you? if the american family can't sign up on the tax site, why attack them? >> you have a lot of good questions, you so kindly put it i will ask you very honestly. >> i would guess your question is better. >> that's fine. do you not think that members of your party, especially in congress and in the ted cruz group are not imploding the republican party big picture? just big picture. politics. put all this aside for a second. are you guys not imploding?

>> big picture. i think this was a horrible strategy. i came on your show. i said. that if we had allowed obama care to roll out and for two weeks america saw the dysfunction. then as we roll into if debt limit and negotiate an increase, i think we would have got a one-year delay because america would have said this is only the fair and right thing to do. >> from a methodology standpoint, congressman, i agree with you. >> your mother. >> and your mom is fabulous by the way. >> i mom loves you. hi, mom. >> what is mom going to think about, saying you are the problem? >> is your mom calling you after this? >> he needs -- >> donny wants to know if your mom is going to call you after this and yelp at you? >> my mom will shout out after your program. >> what is your mom's name? >> carol. >> carol, we love you. we don't know what went wrong with your son. we love you.

we know you are a wonderful woman. carol, i love your son. >> more thank you as well. >> mort, thanks a lot. >> from fiction to poetry, we will exclusively reveal this year's national book award awar final here on "morning joe." vo: two years of grad school. 20 years with the company. thousands of presentations. and one hard earned partnership. it took a lot of work to get this far. so now i'm supposed to take a back seat when it comes to my investments? there's zero chance of that happening. avo: when you work with a schwab financial consultant, you'll get the guidance you need with the control you want. talk to us today. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission.

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we celebrate each and every morning and we are proud to recognize the best of the best with exclusive announcement of the national book award finalists. joining us now, the board of directors, david steinberg. nonfiction. >> the national box award finalists are, book of ages by jill le pore. book of fury, the great unwinding by george packer. the internal enemy by alan taylor and going clear. >> now to vicki. >> the national final. the screen throwers by rachel couchner. the lowlands. the good lord by james mcbride.

leading edge by thomas stinson. >> before we go on, thomas mentioned unique among all the authors. >> he's the only that won the national book before. he will join john up sight and a handful of others who won this award. >> so now johnny deutsch's favorite category is poetry. >> i was reading with johnny in a moment. >> the national book award finalistings for poetry are the big smoke. >> wow. and finally young people's

littiature. >> in young people's literature, the national book award finalists are, boxes and tape. the true blue self of sugar man's swamp. far, far away by tom mcneill. >> being a child at heart and mind, this is the first graphic novel that ever has been nominated this author was a finalist for the second time and if it it does win, it will be the first time. >> from the christian. >> wow. it was the only short story

collection nominated for the national books. today's short story. >> thank you very much for that. >> so anything stand out to you? that either surprised you or you saw they were on the finals here? >> you were seeing in nonfiction, the emphasis on forgotten history. the book about ben franklin's sister. we know a lot about ben franklin and not a lot about his sister. this is the person he was closest to throughout his life. she was forgotten in her life and they were looking at the lifelong correspondent. >> german women and the nazis. tell us about that. >> the took is extraordinary and

also this is about ordinary german women and their role in the holocaust. it's a harrowing read. a lot is lost on that. >> finally really quickly and we have to go, but talk about the unwinding. >> what happened to america since the 1970s. after the argument, the story of ordinary people and really fundamentally changed. they talked about people on the wrong side of the economic divide. >> go for a full list of finalists and the winner of the national award that will be announced on november 20th. up next, will congress save us for themselves? we'll be right back. la's known definitely for its traffic,

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dangnabbit. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast and 5:00 on the west coast. wake up. a live look at new york city. >> we have donny deutsch.

and the associated press's julia paige. thank god. >> what's going on? >> you don't let them in. we tuesday on the air. you know how it's going end upon. >> how is it going to end? >> you have known for the past several weeks. some people in my party took a stupid pill and came up with a horrible strategy. we all said they were going to lose. we all said it. everybody. we all said it. they said guess what, going to lose. you are going to cave in. you are going to look horrible. i don't know how many baseballs are going to end, but i know how

this is going to end. they are not going. >> they are taking the potential challenge of the credit rating and reduced financing flexibility of the united states. last night leaders from both parties scrambled to restart negotiations to end the shut down and extend the treasury's borrowing limit after a deal in the house fell apart. earlier in the day, harry reid and mitch mcconnell put the proposal on hold to allow the house at first, but after a full day of negotiations, speaker boehner was unable to deliver the republican 1r0e9s necessary to pass the bill after it was deemed unacceptable by many conservatives. democrats were outraged they were cutting back negotiations nearly 24-hours and putting all of washington under intense pressure to strike a last minute

deal. >> this is not the first time. extremist republicans in the house are attempting to compete over the senate's progress with a bill that can't pass the senate. can't pass the senate and won't. john baner who once again tried to preserve his role as the saint of the country. >> the problem is that speaker boehner is negotiating with me is not good for the conversations. there have been situations where we have agreements and then he goes back and it turns out he can't control his caucus. the challenge here is can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> i top the get to charlie o'donnell. first, exactly. how do you know how it is?

>> we all remember september 15th, 2008? do you remember that day? do you remember watching the television when the dow jones was losing 1,000 points and kept losing and people started wondering if their retirement was going to collapse? how do i know this is going to happen? i know at some point whether it's thursday or the following tuesday when the markets wake up and realize that there a lot of people who took the crazy pill in washington. those markets will collapse and john boehner will pal in like any responsible adult and they will run to the floor and end the crisis. >> they haven't seemed responsible. >> because you know what, negotiations and steve ratner said this last week. every negotiation goes down to

the last second. >> you have the koch brothers and there is too much money at stake. everybody's net worth is between 30 and 45% going-over a cliff in day. >> let's be clear. those are two different things. there is a version of reality that is you default and the markets crash and the republicans come to their senses. another version of reality is we act at the last minute. the ratner scenario. tomorrow at the last hour we react and those would be two different outcomes. a huge market crash. >> you never get to the market crash. you get to actually everybody is calling boehner and saying you guys have about 12 hours.

then they put a cream bill and default with the vote. and it crashes >> then responsible adults in the end will prevail, but let me give you the floor after telling this next story. this crystallizes whether or not they are adults. house republicans find themselves with their backs against the wall broke out in a hymn of amazing grace. >> i love that show. the best funeral song. wait, it's a funeral song. >> the congressman from texas noted how members of the party know all three verses by memory and said isn't that impressive. >> it's great on star trek and 1,000 years. >> it really is. democrat jerry conley of virginia thought differently. after laughing out loud, he asked the reporters, isn't that

usually played at funerals? he is responsible responsible for his actions and the saving line of grace. i'm not saying my colleagues are wretched, but i hope it indicates, yada, yada, yada. you get the point. >> i love that song. >> it's going o. good to know we have a sound track to our crisis. i think joe was on to something and we are getting the exhaustion phase of a painful chapter. >> let me push the exhaustion button. go ahead. >> part of what derailed things late yesterday is the tea party conservatives were saying they cooperate go along, but not all for the same reason. parts of the bill dealt with

various things that are not gettinga i lot of attention. people had different opinions about the things. it fell short. this really puts them in a position where it is kind of the final hail mary moment. i was there at the senate late last night where reid and mcconnell continued to work and the staff was working to get something ready to go. they were explaining the tactical things and they can come through with a deal and they passed it in the senate and it goes to boehner. i think joe's theory and the insight is probably right. you get to a point where democrats go with boehner and he will lose some of his conservatives, but there will be enough to get it through. that's the best case scenario. there has been a real calmness around john boehner that he is claiming every happened and giving those conservatives every

chance to get their piece through and it has not worked we can say we tried it all. this is a line we can't cross. you can make it happen today. >> by the way, a major race here. >> for turns out -- >> what if i told you, the words are prolific. >> they are. very symbolic. >> let me tell you something. >> we usually hear that song at funerals. the work at the funeral homes. by the way. >> maybe that was part of the acceptance phase. >> i wonder about the one dark

part. >> so ridiculous. you said we were going to. i don't think it's going to happen. they are most likely scenarios, but they are a better reporter than i will be. yesterday i thought there was a fair degree. it didn't seem like it was chaos to me. it wasn't controlled and to the behavior of the house republicans, the 30 or 40 or 50 members who have driven this point have not been wholly rationed. >> just stop making me tired. >> i'm tired. >> we going to score this really? i would love for them to go up. they are still talking like it's

the beginning of september with a statement saying obama care is going to hurt him and all the things we conservatives know. >> obama care is going to hurt america. tell us something we don't know as conservatives. yet you are saying allow america to go over the financial cliff? even congress. mike lee, ted cruz moved on from the strategy. they get a press conference and they get their heads stuck in the sand. >> there members of congress who didn't move on either. they make the exhaustion phase and republicans have to understand we lost this battle weeks ago that we would not be able to win because we were demanding something that was never achievable. john mccain will be called a

rhino. >> the "wall street journal" editorial page is even more. they warned you. >> lindsay graham said speaker binner was becoming a victim of the sales strategy that the republicans screwed up. peter king said the entire situation is saying this party has gone nuts. >> the "wall street journal" editorial page that i talked about, it's a bible for conservatism. you have the write ups. "wall street journal" editorial. write ups. what will the house republicans who don't get what they want which is taking a big piece out of the affordable care act at the end of the day. they have to pass things. what will they deal with to say to constituents or others that they got out of the deal. it does go down the way it played out.

>> not a whole lot. they vote no against whatever measure and stuff on the floor. that may be something they can say this is a reason why you need to accepted us back. you need people in the house to say no to the democratic-led senate. you open the white house perspective and some people are watching this and relishing in the politics of it. the explosion of the republicans. this bolsters the president's position. i can't negotiate with john boehner. every time he comes to the table with the deal, whether he is coming with leadership or the white house, we don't know if he can get the vote. he throws out one deal and can't get the vote. it's another deal and can't get the vote. i think that we are probably going to see the senate today put forward a deal that connell and reid have been working on for a while. it will likely pass the senate and go to the floor and i think john boehner will get the full

democratic vote, but it's so ugh low here even by washington standards, it's hard to predict. >> coming up, we will check in on bob filner. >> he will be on the show? >> the former mayor of san diego. >> in an orange jump suit? >> wanted for mistreating women. okay. we will tell you what else. he better be a pretty good actor to take on a with almost no dialogue and 31 pamgs of script. his new film is being called an epic achievement. he joins us straight ahead. speaking of epic, this is an epic disaster. bill is here with the report. >> a couple of years, don't

worry about it. >> as far as today goes, we have the rain showers to deal with and it won't be bad. a weather story in a little bit. it's serious through the end of october. the temperatures on the east coast, enjoy the mild weather while it lasts. the front comes through and we don't expect enough. they ran up the street for little rock. the west coast by the way, you had a week straight of the gorgeous weather. no end in sight for either. san francisco to l.a., enjoy that. chicago area is one of the spots and the week ahead, it looks like fall and the chill is here to stay with highs in the 50s and lows into the 40s and 30s. overall not too shabby. new york city always crowded

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the former san diego mayor bob dole is pleading guilty for charges from the alleged mistreatment of women. after numerous allegations came out and he was charged with felony, false imprisonment and battery. he will be banned and home for three months. >> florida girls ages 12 and 14 are facing felony aggravated stalking charges accused of

bullying classmates. 12-year-o 12-year-old rebecca committed suicide. it was in person and online. the turning point was saturday when one of the girls wrote on facebook yes, i know i bullied rebecca and she killed herself, but i dgaf. >> i don't give a -- >> come on. this is real. >> it happened. it happens. >> think of the mother and the father. >> they are looking not just at the girl, but the parents not controlling it. it will be one of the bigger issues with technology and how you monitor that and how you control it. it's such a challenge for

parents. >> i control it in my house. the kids get really, really upset, but the bottom line is you own those devices and as parents, you are responsible for them. >> you have to let them know you are not only going to read them, you will monitor them. >> in your son or daughter is bullied online, you can call the parents and say hey, listen. let me tell you what i saw on line. you keep your daughter or son out of my child's way or you are going to talk about this at school. >> the damage has been done. i know that. >> that's a terrible story. new york post last week and new york city, there were no murders in any of the borrows.

the fst time since last january. so far in 2013, there have been 256 murders, down from the same period last year. >> "san francisco chronicle," the body of an 18-footlong serpent ept like sea creature -- >> i love this story. >> it was discovered off catalina island in southern california. crazy. a diver discovered the 300 pound fi fish. >> that was 15 feet? up to 50 feet. >> no. you need 50 people and they swim for more than three. >> if you ever catch con, i wouldn't stop it. i rode one. >> nobody laughed.

lock at that fish. >> it's 50 feet. catalina island, i went to boy scout camp and we were excited. >> this is important. >> oreos just as addictive as cocaine. they are not, are they? >> no. >> the stuff in the oreo. is that what happens? >> no, actually -- >> you wouldn't believe it. okay, a study of lab rats by students at connecticut college, the oreos triggered more than

cocaine. this study has been done before at other universities with other types of foods with sugary fat. it's in the food and causes the same reaction from the center of the brain like that cookie. >> you know the difference is, you gain weight or you lose weight. >> or both. >> you vote. >> that's only the right way. >> that's now when you and i go to vegas, you save a lot of time and effort. >> it's double stuff.

>> okay. >> all right, the great mind. >> that is an honor and a privilege. >> look and the playbook of mine. it was a big mayoral debate in new york city. the federal government shut down is a heated local issue with places like new york city, the democrats had something like 60 points. they were with national republicans and the tea party. >> interesting that the tea party on staten island was the support and the tea party members said they were close to this. we don't need republicans's trickle down economics. the idea that the tea party is holding up obama care and the

situation, this is really more honest with us. if you go to the tea party, it's not on the same thing. >> i don't agree with financial republican party long and hard. i am pro choice, they are not. i am pro gay rights and marriage equality and they are not. i have been outspoken about this over and over again. when i went, there were things i disagreed with. do not love me as a national republican. it's unbecoming. >> there was a debate and you heard some of these as well. the republicans in washington in washington. >> good luck. there was a conversation about the brand. the democrats had any republicans whether they agree with the tea party and the stuff having to do with the shut down last night. there was only one other debate.

he did nothing to change the debate and complained all he wants and doesn't have anything to do with it. as a republican attorney general cuccinelli, he had the governments open and yes, all the ads are directed at him. >> for ken cuccinelli, can it be any worse than right now? he already had problems with the book he wrote and talking about medicare and social security. as you know, you win the primary in the middle of virginia for governor. suddenly washington is blowing up. it's a horrible time for ken cuccinelli. >> at the same time they thought virginia was a purple state, but it's a blue state right now. >> it's a great time and you

made a point. to a i'm not a washington republican, keep running in that direction right now. >> chris christie. ever been to catalina island. i hear it's great. wow. >> mike allen, thanks. coming up next, robert redford and why he calls his new film pure cinema. next on "morning joe." ♪

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. >> academy award winning director with robert redford. i don't know if i have the words, but all is lost with robered redfort in tobert redfo business of dying. would you say this this is the last? >> no. >> only robert redford is saying that. >> no. that's for other poem to say. >> how about the challenge? >> the challenge was one of the reasons i did it. it was full of challenges.

one of them being there was no dialogue. there was no dialogue. >> that was one of the 31 cases. >> that was probably all of it. there was no dialogue and it was a pure challenge. really hoping to find it in my time. the challenges were a risk. also to occupy the boat for that long would be challenges to make it work. >> it was also what it means to be all alone and what it means to be such a parallel. >> there is a lot if you top the go there. want to go to politics, how alone did you feel? >> depends on who you ask in washington right now.

>> anyway, i think the idea is alone and facing that we are all going to die. i hate to naught on the show, but we are all going to die and we have to face that inevitability. how you do it when the time comes. >> it's interesting. it brought me back to that against the west. this rugged individual and i was blown away by the film. without giving away the ending, what's the message for us on perseverance? whether we are going against the econ mow and whether it's a metaphor. >> for me, i don't know what it is. it goes back to the 1970s. that was the man alone on land.

this was the man that was at what point do you say with insur mountable odds, all is lost. some people would give up and quit. there is though other reason than that's all there is to do. >> we have another scene from the film where the character is trying to simply find should go to eat. let's take a look.

>> you obviously won an academy award directing. in this one you act. is it hard to sit back because you are a prolific director and push direction? >> i love that i could do that. i love the idea because i just directed a film that i could get myself over to a dresser and not think about directing. i could do that because it was so strong and hoe has such a grip on his idea. when i met him, my gut said go with it unless he's crazy. he wasn't and i said let's do it. that was great. there were too many people in the kitchen. you have managers and handlers

and you are pushing every kind of a conclusion. i love the idea of turning myself over. the irony was that of all the people i supported over the years, nobody asked me to do the film. >> let me ask you the questions about crafts. you talk about very little dialogue. there was no back story. as you are doing this or having this for two hours, it's just you. do you give yourself a back story? is it in your mind this character how they live and how you did it in your head? >> it is. i tell you what i liked about it. the lack of dialogue and the lack of information that became existential. i took the keys to what was there. this was a guy who said only one thing. i'm sorry, i tried. i think you know i tried.

that tells you that he did make an effort to fail and didn't quite make a mark. maybe this journey has to do with completing something he never would have. that's all i really needed. >> that sounds like all of us. all is lost premiers on friday in new york city in los angeles. nationwide on october 25th, it is unbelievable. robert redford, thank you. great to have you back on the show. up next, a big day and how the traders positioned themselves with day less. cnbc's kelly evans is live when we return.

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>> now with kelly evans, the shut down is already having an impact on morgan applications. >> exactly. it is starting to show up across a range of things. last night one of the major ratings firms warned they will downgrade the u.s., saying they put the aaa negative on a negative. if there is a tampering with payments, it could put the u.s. on selective default. that happened and they downgraded the u.s. a couple of years ago. the last time on what happened in washington, much more troubling. we got the figures in regards to mortgage applications. the interest rates have moved higher and it was down by 50%

compared to this time last year. applications for new mortgages if you are buyinga i home are falling as well. they are down by 1% from this time last year. if you think about the importance, this is where we don't top the see that impact. >> but then with all the talking, stocks are up and not up by ten points. we have to talk about why the markets are not nervous. >> we had a sell off over the last couple of days that had people pricing in a little bit more of the calamity in washington. it is this out come that there is no way it could possibly happen. a lot of people say they don't want to get out of the market because as soon as there is somewhere to go, all of the money comes back in. we will stay here and hope they don't screw this up. really unless it gets to the point where the u.s. is saying that there is no payments on social security and the economy

in terms of government spending turns south and until or unless that happens, i don't expect further reaction here. >> the loading down moment is not tomorrow. i am serious. let's say the moment does come. what kips of markets are they showing? >> i will try to keep it frequent. we are not talking about the hard and fast deadline, but increasingly difficult choices as they can't borrow anymore. that's in terms of social security and coming to you towards the end of the month and mid-november. there is not novemberly going to be a moment where all of that happens at once. before we get to that point and have to make the decisions and

gifts. >> was that systemic failure? the united states is pushing and now we have to slap them out of it. 2008, it might have been a dead body. there is a big difference in the downside. we have to figure it out. the money is there. >> kelly evans, hillary clinton is going support the bin laden way and the vice president is not. kicking into gear. that story when we return. for seeing your business in a whole new way. for seeing what cash is coming in and going out... so you can understand every angle of your cash flow- last week, this month, and even next year. for seeing your business's cash flow like never before, introducing cash flow insight powered by pnc cfo.

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>> 53 past the hour and new speculation today hitting the democrats. the members of the photo with the situation the bin laden way between then secretary of state hillary clinton and joe biden. clinton started to take the side for biden for opposing the rays. the constitution reports the rays in a recent address. a state representative said clinton's press and vice president biden adviced against it.

clinton made a similar statement at an event in new york. anything there? >> the vice president has published and showed about 150,000 times. it seems like it's a secret, but it's not. they mix the argument that president obama went against the advice. the vice president is running away from the point. >> that's a little bit. >> tomorrow we will be in washington. the final day before the nation's deadline. cokie roberts will be among the many guests. up next, what if anything did we learn today?

>> i have no idea how this is going to end. >> i learned so much today. first of all that redford movie. wow is all i can say. i found out that in vegas, stopping and going to a hotel, saving. the oreo creams. >> stop that. and so thank you guys for watching. i do apologize for that.